Links should open a new window? Want to bet?
In the comments on my post that the best blogs send their audience away quite a few folks are saying that links should be set to open a new window. I strongly disagree.
And two commenters give the 'new window' junkies a challenge.
Greg Storey bets you can't find a usability expert who would agree with you.
I'll pay $100 to the first person who can quote a well-known and well respected, published, web usability expert who says having links open a completely new browser is a good idea (note: said quote must come from after the turn of the century). It was a nifty idea back in the late 90's but it's common knowledge among web producers that using target="_blank" is a bad idea.Firefox and Safari (IE whenever they can pull their apps out of gamma) allow users to chose to open links in new tabs — or a new window if the pop-up options don't block it first — and that's the way it should be.
Christian Montoya challenges folks to find a top blog that sets links to open new windows.
You guys are all quite dense. If you had read the above entry, you would have noticed that the following point is being made:"The best blogs [which you wish your blog was one of them] send [their] audience away [which means, they DO NOT try to keep users]"
Your insisting on keeping users on your blog by having links open in a new window is exactly the problem. The best blogs send users to other sites, and those users come back time and time again looking for more new stuff. Get it now?
(In case you still don't, visit Technorati.com and check out the top 100 blogs. Go through them all and see how many open links in new windows. I can assure you that the top 5 DON'T. If the best bloggers don't do it, why do you?)
Games on.
Oh, dem's fightin' words!
Okay, but it's got me rethinking this thing, too....at minimum it would definitely bump up the hit count stats even if it doesn't encourage more reading. Hmmmm...
I can only add that there can be no absolute rules. I agree that in the context of a blog with external links it is a bad idea to open a new window with those links. But I don't believe it can be said to "never open a link in a new window under any circumstance at any time". That's all I'm saying.
Generally speaking, I agree with this notion. However I have a major problem with the term "web usability expert". Can we please stop assigning rank everywhere? The internet is supposed to be an open platform built by people, for people. Isn't anyone who uses the internet regularly an expert in web usability? In anything dealing with the entire global population, there is no room for concrete rules, and there is no room for self-proclaimed experts.
Bobby, what color is the sky in your commune?
No, not everyone who uses the web is a usability expert just as not everyone who uses a garden hose is a fireman or just as everyone who owns a copy of Photoshop is not a graphic designer, I could go on.
And where does this notion of Internet: For Us, By Us come from? It was originally created to help the US military communicate and then later by universities for research and recently by everyone for multiple uses.
Web usability differs from audience to audience. We all do what we think is right. Any true "expert" of the internet would know that there is no room for experts. Especially those that create hard and fast rules about how everything ought to be. And the thought that we should only value the opinions of people who are published (I'm assuming in a traditional sense) is kind of laughable since the internet offers the benefit of instant, self publication to anyone in the world.
Putting aside the expert discussion for a sec, what's wrong with just emulating successful people/companies/blogs? For something so simple as whether or not a link should open in a new window, I say, sure, go do what you want with your own site if you really think it will do well for you, but I would advise you to take a second look at what makes the successful sites successful. You can argue till you're blue but you can't dispute the fact that people like Greg and Christian, and others like them are successful and part of what makes them so is their wisdom in cases like this.
The number one rule I have for clients of mine: Don't ever tell me to do something just because it can be done. And don't ask me to do anything that goes against my principles and target blank is just what it says... you're hitting a blank target, going nowhere, suffering long, failing your purpose, selling your babes, cutting off your head to spite your face, growing weed in a donut shop, shacking up with the Cable Guy, pissing in the coffee pot, chopping your willie...
First of all, I'm not disagreeing with the notion of avoiding target="_blank", however, allow me to play devil's advocate for a sec.
First of all, there is a lot more to the internet than just blogs. If you want to talk about successful web sites, then it is essential that you define what successful means. Since we know that "good" and "bad" design are not absolute concepts, it has to be something that is quantifiable, like readership. Now, nothing against Greg, but I'm positive that AOL.com gets a lot more readers than Airbag. AOL.com also uses new window popups.
I happen to like Airbag, and I happen to hate AOL.com, but that mere fact alone is not enough to prove your theory correct. I have no problem agreeing, as an individual, that target="_blank" is more often than not annoying. But I do have a problem with labeling it universally wrong, anytime, anywhere just because Jakob Nielsen told me to.
Bobby, heed caution using, saying, or typing that name. The All Seeing Side-Burns is pure evil and even the Google indexing of his name can drive entire villages completely insane.
See, thats why I added "well respected" to the clause of my bet. Also, the last time I checked, it's been a long time since anyone considered AOL an act to follow.
Kidding and machismo aside, I've done enough usability testing and website support in the last twelve years to know that pop-up windows of any kind (intentional or not) drives the average user nuts, they go ballistic, and after a while and you have to douse them with water to stop the flames shooting out of their skull. I'd say that pop-up windows kill but we never let it go that far for me to be able to say that with certainty.
Well JN's name comes up way more than anyone else's, so he must be well respected by somebody. But that's the inevitable result of creating a framework of supposed experts in a field that is supposed to be creative. You get (and the music swells...) differing opinions! And that's my point, really.
Regarding your research, I'm sure it is as accurate as your test pool allowed you to be in 12 years. And by all means, do what works for you and your clients. But do not presume to know what's best for the whole internet. Don't forget that the middle "w" stands for WIDE! It's a wide, wide world.
Your theory of popups driving the average user nuts presumes that there is such thing as an "average" user. But by number crunches alone, the "average" user is also on MySpace. Perplexing.
I'm not defending the "ugly design = good design" argument, I'm simply saying that making sweeping, all-inclusive statements about web usability based on "research" and "experts" is about as effective as building a house of cards on a swing.
I personally think it's a per site decision and don't see anything wrong with external links opening new windows.
Now I disagree with Greg's assumtion that pop-up blockers will "get it first". I'm not talking about pop-up or fixed-sized windows. The rel=external way of making them open is fine and if you don't have JavaScript enabled you stay in the same browser. Clean and effective.
With Christian's point of blogs not sending you away - if the content is interesting I personally don't mind if it opens in a new window or not as I'll come back regardless.
In a perfect world you should be able to get the personal browsing behaviour & patterns of your target audience but that's the impossible dream so it's up to the developer (you) to make a judgement call.
If an external link opens a new window is surely one of the least important usability aspects of a website?
But do not presume to know what's best for the whole internet.
Unless I've missed something all modern browsers work the same (expect that IE doesn't have tabs, yet). They all use HTML (or code the renders HTML), hyperlinks, URLs, buttons that refresh the page, help navigate back and forward, etc. With the expection of how people read text -- left to right vs. right to left, up to down, whatever -- I fail to see, or have ever heard of, a dramatic difference in how a people across different cultures and countries browse or use the web.
Conventions of usability apply to the tool and how it is used. Just as the Internet is not a truck neither is a browser a house of cards on a swing.
Conventions of usability apply to the tool and how it is used
Exactly. Do you use the internet the same way I do? The problem with the tab solution is that most people are still on IE and don't know what tabs are. When that changes I'm sure tabs will be the way to go.
The point is that I do personally know people who swear by opening each site in its own window, and people who don't. I know people who actually appreciate that sort of thing on a site. They DO exist, even though there are none present here among us. Additionally there are still practical applications for new windows, such as when there is peripheral information that needs to be seen without destroying form input. There may be professional or academic uses for it, too. Who knows? It's a matter that should be left up to the designer and his/her audience.
If a blogger **needs** to trick readers to get them to stay (by forcing links into a new window), he / she should get out of blogging. Honestly, how lame.
Wouldn't it be must easier to style external links using CSS to let people know they're going to leave your site and give THEM the power to decide what they want to happen on their computer?
Seems like the same issue with resizing windows on page load. That drives me nuts too, especially when it resizes to the same size my browser window was already at - that's just non-intuitive and lame, like my boss telling me to do something when I'm clearly in the middle of doing it.
Looks like the UPA and IDXA have a long way to go getting respect for what they do. I don't know that this is the place for a "what is usability / I don't need no stinking usability" war. Bobby I think you'd be well advised to do a little reading up on the subject before presuming to know what usability folks do.
As far as staying on topic...it's not even an issue of usability it's an issue of common courtesy and respect for your users. Don't blast them into a new window, let them decide their own flow and path of travel. We're talking blogs here people, not NASA apps.
To not get into the usability analyst/expert side of things, I can emphatically say that for some organizations it is all about the brand an their perception of who should be the last Web site seen when you close your browser. Sound funny? Maybe not.
I'm not saying I'm a fan of opening every outbound link in a new browser window, but I don't know how many times I personally make the choice to open a link in a new tab or window because I don't want to lose that original Web site. I know my own behavior warrants that typical task because of the sites I visit. Now one could argue that the fact it is my own decision to do so makes it OK, but the owner of that Web site should not make the choice for me. Maybe, maybe not.
Smart companies will test different versions of the practice and see which garners better results and stick with that practice. The arguement of using "_blank" or not is not one anyone can say is right or wrong. It is about a matter of purpose. If it isn't a pop-up that will catch your attention it will be some AJAX driven overlay or a diversion page that is hard coded in by the owner of the site. Reality is that marketers drive that and they keep doing it because it gets results.
I think to Kevin's point, if you drive visitors away it is because you are pointing them to good content and they will come back to you as a source of finding good content.
Back to the usability aspect, Web site emulation is a common practice. Every looked that the top e-commerce sites of the world. How similar are they? VERY. Ever wonder why blogs all have a similar format? Because it works and visitors don't have to relearn how to navigate your blog. And that is the proven practices that any usability expert will tell you. That is what JN states in his articles and content.
As for my personal taste, there is always a "back" button for my visitors. I let them make the choice. My place of employment has a different theory on that, and to be honest it works for both scenarios.
If I want a link to open in new window OR tab I'll do it my self. I don't want your windows or tabs. It's my browsing experience. Provide a link. I'll decide what to do with it.
Stop making the decision to clutter my fucking tab bar and desktop for me. If your site isn't good enough that I want to come back, opening new tabs or windows isn't going to help you.
See that? If the error was a popup, you wouldn't seen underneath it that your comment was already posted! :D
I'm just sayin...
I'd still be pissed off that there was a popup.
;)
Fark opens in a new window.
Pay up.
The purpose of following conventions like not having links open in a new window is to provide the least negative experience for the most amount of people.
You're right in that thre are multiple types of users and the best practice is to create an experience that provides the base for as many types of users as possible. Forcing links to open in new browsers (or in new instances of the same application as is the case with IE which is still by in large the browser of choice for most of the world) isn't the right option.
"I don't know how many times I personally make the choice to open a link in a new tab or window because I don't want to lose that original Web site."
Doesn't it make sense that if a site is good enough, people WILL do just that. I know I click out a lot and in fact my opening a new tab is dependent upon the quality of the site I'm on at the time. If your site stinks, forcing me to open in a new window isn't going to help things. Forcing your site to be the last thing seen is just silly. Let it stand on its own. If it's not good enough to stand on its own, don't force it on people. One of the most beautiful things about the internet is the freedom for the USER to decide WHEN and WHERE to surf, why take away our HOW?
Hmm, this caught my attention as it is something that I have been pondering as of late. Currently on bigberries.com links open in new windows for a while all links did. The reason being wasn't to keep visitors but more based on my own behavior. When I browse all links open in the next available tab. This is because I go through so much stuff I don't have time to backspace I'd rather pop a tab and keep cruising the page I'm on, and go to the tab later, which from my perspective up until this point provided more flexibility. But from an IE users perspective I could see that being a very irritating, back in the day, spammy behavior. A good bulk of the reason many don't use IE.
The thing is this the early adopters who use browsers with tabs more than likely have set their preferences to open all links in new windows anyway if that's their thing and don't know how you set the links anyway. The people who use IE don't have a choice and choice is what matters because people who desire to have tabs and like to have 30+ open have switched to browsers that support their viewing style. There is no need to do anything.
Long story short, we may stop opening links in new windows, because even though a good portion of our visitors use other browsers besides IE, IE is still the majority of users flowing through the site. If that were not the case then I think opening in new windows would be fine because most users of FireFox, opera and others have set their link behavior rules to to fit their browsing habits. I hope my post isn't too long thanks for the read. Much success to all of you.
All links on my blog ALWAYS opened in a new window - not after reasing this - makes perfect sense. Thank you for writing this piece and for the brilliant comments on the piece as well!
Talk about a tempest in a teapot, Kevin. Does it really matter? Isn't a link a link, and if you have a measure of whether it's the most popular way to leave the page, have a reference list at the bottom or, gasp, launch the link in a new window, isn't the point that blogging often involves weaving your content into the existing Web, rather than creating entries that are islands unto themselves?
I don't want to add fuel to the fire because I completely agree with what is being said, but I do have one question. In the portfolio section of this very blog, the links to the works (albeit, only when you click on the image) open in a completely new window. When showcasing your work, does it then become acceptable to open links in a new window? If so, would someone care to elaborate as to why? I'm fairly new to the intricacies of web design, so any explanation is greatly appreciated.
Actually, the more I have a look around this site, the more links I find that open in new windows (such as the Blogs of Note just to the left of these comments). I guess it would be good to know whether you're talking about links simply in the "content" of a page or throughout every link on the site.
Some great discussion since I left that first comment! I originally started using "target=_blank" in my blog because it was requested by an early reader using IE, and I personally prefer links opening in a new windows so it seemed the right thing to do.
I spend my days mostly doing research on the web at work (an IE shop), so if I find a good site I like to click through its offerings opening separate windows and keep track of how far down on the "list" of links I am. Harder to do using the back and forward buttons since not all websites put you back where you were. Also I like to refer between resources frequently, so in IE will often have 5 or more windows open at any one time so I can flip between sites.
This is very different from the advertising popups which open and open and open and are sometimes difficult to stop.
I should also point out that you are very sophisticated crowd...most people using IE have no idea you can ask a link to open in a new window.
All of this being said, I found Kevin's original post thought provoking and have stopped using "target=_blank" in my new posts to see if my readers or I notice any difference. My one theory is that it may eventually produce more "hits" in the web stats, assuming someone ever comes back to my site.
I tell you, though, I'm not going back to all my past postings to recode them!! 8-)
For those who just LOOOOOOVE new windows... Ctrl+click (Firefox) and Shift+click (IE). There - compromise. :)
Robert, any chance I could get a cut of that? You know, for moral support and stuff?
What a firestorm is right.
Brandon, you're right about some links on this site opening new windows. I admit guilt by reason of previous employees' work.
It's on the list to correct but for now I'm trying to do a better job with the blog.
Actually, the School of Information Arts and Technologies at the University of Baltimore uses new windows, as well as Savannah College of Art & Design's actual page on information architecture. And the best one yet has the be MIT's Adaptive Technology for Information and Computing's page on "MIT web accessability guidelines".
So Greg, is it $100 per person, or do we have to share?
Kevin, I appreciate your response. I figured that could possibly be the case, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. By the way, thanks for the article. I always enjoy reading topics that are not discussed on a regular basis. Keep up the good work.
Actually, forget the cut. I'll take the whole thing.
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Well known:
I think we've all heard of MIT.
Well respected:
MIT's alumni offers some of the most illustrious key players in the development, evolution, and standardization of the Internet. It is impossible to deny MIT's contribution to web usability.
Published:
Indeed, they even run their own publishing facility.
After Dec. 31, 1999:
The page I am about to quote was last updated on Oct. 11, 2005.
From http://web.mit.edu/atic/www/accessibility/developweb.html#pop
When pop-up windows are invoked to display separate html content, use the onclick and onkeypress event handlers to open the window (both returning false so the href is not followed by javascript enabled browsers) and point the the href directly to the html content, targeting a "_blank" window. This will allow javascript-enabled keyboard users to benefit from javascript window control, while allowing non-javascript enabled users to view the content, albeit in a full browser window.
I hope you are willing to follow through with your challenge payout, kidding and machismo aside. I prefer PayPal, if you've got it.
Best usability practice IS to not use the target="_blank". If a user wants to come back to the site they will use their back button or history in the browser.
My last post was actually supposed to replace the post before it. I figured I should be more in-depth. Sorry for the double link.
Pay for what? All you did is show that the MIT published how to make a pop-up. I don't see anything that says, make all outbound links open in a new window.
That's not what you're asking for. Your challenge states:
"I'll pay $100 to the first person who can quote a well-known and well respected, published, web usability expert who says having links open a completely new browser is a good idea."
Since they published the correct syntax for creating an outbound link that opens in a new window within the context of a "Web Accessability Guidelines" document, then this is obviously a guideline! And if they are publishing this technique as a guideline, then they obviously think it's a good idea, or else they wouldn't have included it.
Don't go rephrasing the terms of your bet on me, now.
Bobby, you are quoting a document that teaches guidelines for making code accessible. Specifically, the paragraph you are quoting shows how to include the proper Javascript to make a popup link accessible. The MIT guideline is not a document that discusses best practices for web based user interface and no where in that document does it say that you should make all links open in a new window.
Nowhere in your challenge does it say that it has to state that, either.
Read over your own paragraph and tell me where you are requesting that the quote has to appear in the context of a document that discusses best practices, and that it has to say to make all links open in a new window. Nowhere, that's where.
I answered every point of your challenge correctly. Don't make bets that you aren't ready to lose.
Just thought I'd point out that the title of guideline on the mentioned page is "Careful with Pop up Windows." That title doesn't sound like the folks at MIT think it's a 'good idea.'
I am sincerely flattered that you are all conducting this good faith debate on my blog.
Still believe strongly that links on blogs are best suited to opening in the same window. Like Rob, when clients ask for opening new windows on links, I feel they are saying their blog is so weak it can't get people to stay on its own.
And as to web usability, there may be more than one way to do something, but like Greg said proper practice is then to choose the practice which provides 'the least negative experience for the most amount of people.'
I haven't seen anything that says it's good usability practice to open new windows. Sure, it's your choice to do so, I just don't believe it's the standard in the industry.
Colin, if you actually would have read past the title you would have discovered the paragraph that I already quoted.
Kevin, the word "blog" doesn't appear in the context of Greg's challenge. What is your opinion of using this technique on any other kind of website?
I have to re-emphasize, as the main naysayer in this thread, that I am not arguing with this point. I actually agree with it. I think that everything has it's place, but overall I agree with you guys when it comes to blogs. I'm just engaging in the challenge of finding "a well-known and well respected, published, web usability expert who says having links open a completely new browser is a good idea", which I've done to absolute completion, and am now eagerly awaiting to see if Greg is the type of guy who stands behind his bets.
Ryan and Natalie, like many advanced users, seem to have forgotten what it's like to be a newbie. Many users (especially Mac users) don't even know the difference between a left click and a right click much less about opening a page in a new window or tab. If your site caters to newbies, opening external links in a new page can improve usability -- especially if, as Bobby noted, the page contains a form. Plus the target="_blank" tag does not prevent advanced users from opening a link in a new tab (as I usually do). This is not a black and white issue.
I think Greg is avoiding me.
Why am I getting the feeling that there never was $100 really behind this bet? :/
Not cool...
Regarding the "Newbies dont know how to open in a new tab/window" issue. I'd agree that most people wouldn't know how. However, this is because until recently opening in new windows hasn't been deemed bad practice (and not standards compliant) therefore negating the need to know. As soon as the majority of sites adopt this practice (and I believe they will) people will soon learn. The "Average User" isn't as dumb as us designers/developers think.
GreyBox solution - A pop-up window that doesn't suck.
http://orangoo.com/labs/?page_id=5
"Many users (especially Mac users) don't even know the difference between a left click and a right click much less about opening a page in a new window or tab."
Is it best to educate or cater to the lowest denominator? I'm not saying a person can't make links open in a new window, but it is NOT the best solution for anyone if they want to keep educated browsers. If all you want are the newbies, you may be just fine and if alienating more sophisticated users is okay, go for it! And obviously forms are fine. We're talking about LINKS in new windows, right, not just mini pages within the same site? EXTERNAL LINKS... still not a good idea.
And Bobby, you said, "Nowhere in your challenge does it say that it has to state that, either." You seem to be desperate for money or just desperate to be right, I don't know, but Greg's challenge is pretty darn clear to me. You have to find a PERSON (expert), not a list of guidelines on a website by a large entity, AND... the QUOTE (not snippet of generic text but a quote of something one person said) has to actually say opening links in a new window is a good idea - can't be implied. I'm just reading that literally though, with no analyzing or interpretation. Greg, is that about right?
I have no interest in being right, because as I've said, I generally agree with the rest of you on this topic. This is about money, and what's wrong with that? If someone is going to be dumb enough to make a bet with the whole Internet, I'm going to be smart enough to take advantage of it. Greg garnered a lot of publicity to his site, so why shouldn't he be accountable for his own words?
But aside from the money, it's also a little bit about making a point: do not make bets with the whole Internet on a matter that is ruled by opinion! Unless you've got money you're hoping to part with.
What you interpret as being literal, I interpret as splitting hairs for the sake of not giving in to the inevitable truth. That truth being that there are so-called web usability experts out there who think window pop-ups ain't a bad way of doing things. Of course no one is going to suggest that ALL links should pop-up, that would be like saying that every graphic should be a rollover. But that was never the proposition.
Just to add insult to injury to this now hopeless bet, Basecamp uses this technique, too. And 37 Signals is regarded to be the bleeding edge gurus of web usability 'round these parts.
Your point is made, though just the use of a feature doesn't always condone the behavior and in reference specifically to the bet, Greg has every right to award winnings to a person based on his literal wording of his bet with no additional interpretation or implications and it's a little childish to act the way you have over something so small. "whole internet" or not, you don't have to be a jerk about it.
Natalie, yeah thats how I and everyone I know sees it. Thanks for clarifying none-the-less.
Bobby, a quick Google search shows that you're a known troll and you have certainly proven your abilities here. You have admitted to hijacking a comment thread not to prove a point (because you agree with it) but for a mere $100. That's pretty low. If you needed the money that bad we could have held a telethon for you.